Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Stupidity and Religion |
Tue 11/04/08 11:23 AM |
The doctrine of Chrsitianity is truly a doctrine that is based on both brainwashing techniques as well as intimidation.
In other words the Bible is a brainwashing book.
Christians will deny this, but that is totatlly irrelavent and doesn't change the truth.
It a religion that is based on brainwashing and intimidation.
No doubt about. You hit the nail on the head with that one.
Any creator of this universe could not possible be as stupid as the Bible make him out to be.
I found better ways to worship the creator of this universe.
Christians will claim that I'm worshiping a false God. But that's hogwash.
There is no such thing as a false God if you are worshiping the creator of this unvierse.
Any way that you worship your creator is indeed worshiping your creator.
So the idea of something as like as "Thou shalt not have any other gods before me", is utterly stupid.
I don't put any God above the creator of this universe, and any God who claims that I'm not worshiping it then must also be claiming that it is not the creator of this universe, because that's who I'm worshiping.
And I totally denounce the Bible as totally negative garbage. The Bible is not God.
People who worship the Bible are worshiping the thoughts of ancient men.
They are not worshiping the creator of this universe.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Tue 11/04/08 11:11 AM |
When I was living a 'back-to-basics' lifestyle I had a huge garden and grew just about everything I could order from a Gurney's seed catalog. 
At that time I was pretty close to being a pure vegetarian. Although I did have chickens, and so I ate lots of eggs. I also ate a chicken from time to time, but not reqularly.
I also had bees and used honey in place of sugar all the time.
I'm sure I could do without meat and not truly miss it.
I eat meat a lot now. But this is mainly because meat dishes are simply easier to prepare for the most part. Especially being that I have a gas grill. 
It easier to just plot a couple of pork chops on the grill than to cook up a rice stew for example.
Also I buy frozen dinners a lot and they are hard to find without meat. And finally I eat at fast food joints a lot, (too often actually) and they too don't have much on the menus that isn't meat-based.
I think if vegetarian meals were easier to come by I might be more inclined to eat less meat, or even do without it altogther.
From my point of view, meat meals are just easier to come by and prepare. That's truly what drives me to eat meat more than anything else.
Just plain laziness. 
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Tue 11/04/08 12:46 AM |
QUOTE:
Hey I think if you want to be a Vegan that's fine with me, but I don't think you should make a religion out of it and judge people who eat meat as horrible monsters who kill god's creatures.
Let's face it. It's a dog-eat-dog world. Animals eat each other all the time. Live! And it's often quite cruel.
Moreover it's totally impractical not to kill animals at all. We'd be totally overrun by them if we hadn't already killed off the bulk of the dangerous ones to keep them down in population.
People may be considerate about not eating an alligator. But alligators don't have any problem eating people.
Same goes with lions, etc.
I don't really have a problem with killing animals for food. But I do have a problem with farms that raise food animals in inhumane conditions. That's totally uncalled for.
So I can have issues with commercial food sources. But I really don't have a problem with killing animals for food.
Although, in truth, just on a personal note I'd rather be a vegan. Or at least a vegetarian. I really have no problem eating dairy products, or even eggs for that matter.
But I think vegan is ultimately more healthy actually. I don't do it yet, but I may start heading in that direction. My sister is a vegan. She was a vegetarian for most of her life, but now she has become a complete vegan, she won't even eat cheese, dairy products, or eggs. Of course she gave up the eggs a long time ago. But giving up cheese was hard for her.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Tue 11/04/08 12:13 AM |
QUOTE:
Its individual spirituality that counts. And that is not allowed in organized religion.
Amen to that!
I'm looking into witchcraft and shamanism purely for personal development.
I'm not even interested in any covens or organized religions.
Having said that, I can see the potential for postive gain by people adding their spiritual powers together.
However, it's been my experience that most organized religions fail. They either end up being a few strongly charismatic people controlling a mass of blind sheep followers, or they end up with large masses of people supporting dogma that they truly don't even understand much less follow.
I truly believe that anyone who has found genuine spirituality isn't going to be going around trying to convert people.
They might be enthusiastic about 'sharing' what they've experienced.
But there's a huge difference between sharing what a person knows with other people who are truly interested, and attempting to convinced disinterested people that they need the religion.
The first is admirable.
The second is proselytation and/or oppression via coercion.
I personally have no need to join any organized religions, nor organize one myself.
But I would always be willing to share what I know with anyone who is genuinely interested.
And if anyone wants to tell me I'm nuts and my religion is stupid. More power to them. As long as they don't get brutal about it, it's not a problem.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Mon 11/03/08 11:30 PM |
QUOTE: A lot of people enjoy the author Christopher Penczak. I know I have found his books very useful. He has a lot of exercises you can do and meditation cd's as well.
Ok, I'm looking at these now. These do look very good and the reviews are extremely positive.
I'm looking at the following titles.
The Inner Temple of Witchcraft:
Magick, Meditation and Psychic Development
The Outer Temple of Witchcraft:
Circles, Spells and Rituals
The Temple of Shamanic Witchcraft:
Shadows, Spirits and the Healing Journey
These come to $40 which isn't bad for what they appeat to contain.
Then another $60 for all the accompanying CDs.
That's big ticket right there.
But considering that it all focuses on precisely what I'd like to learn it seems like a good investment.
That's less than $10 a month if you think about the fact that owl most likely be using these materials for the whole year of 2009.
I think owl just go for it, and let this be my introduction to witchcraft for 2009.
I read the reviews on Scott's "Living Wicca", and a lot of them said that it doesn't really offer all that much more than the original book. Same stuff just in greater detail (more dogmatic).
I can create my own dogma.
I may have already gotten what I needed from Scott.
This other fellow with the CDs seems to have practical exercises for practicing specific things like visualization techniques, psyche development, circle casting rituals, shamanism, and healing.
So he seems to be covering the major topics I'm looking to focus on with practical exercises.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Mon 11/03/08 10:38 PM |
QUOTE:
Living Wicca, if memory serves me correctly, is about building the religion into your daily life.
Well, this is definitely what I've already been doing.
Although I'm not sure if I'm doing it in the way that Scott suggests. And I'm not even sure if I want to do it in the way that Scott suggests. I guess I can't know that until I read the book. That's why I was hoping to find it at the library before I actually buy it.
I've been turning EVERYTHING into a ritual. I mean just about everything I do. From cooking meals to chopping wood, to playing musical instruments, and even writing.
I've turned mundane tasks like brushing my teeth into a ritual. And taking baths. In fact, I love the ritual baths. I've never taken such good care of myself before. It's almost like my body belongs to God now and I'm just its caretaker.
So now I'm taking care of my body for God's sake.
That was a literal sentence by the way.
I've been needing 'religiousity' in my life lately. Not so much spirituality. I've always had spirituality. But now I need 'religiousity' (structure and purpose) and Wicca has given me this thus far, and will continue to do so because I'm going to continue to develop it on my own path.
I may need to call it something other than "Wicca" when I'm done. But I'm definitely on the right track. There's no question about that. I've never felt closer to God. This religion is precisely what I needed. It is sorely ashame that I hadn't been introduced to Wicca (in this way) when I was a child. I would have had a much more creative and productive life to be sure.
So yes, incorporating it into my life every minute of every day is my intent.
Absolutely.
But I'm still not sure whether I necessarily want to do it how Scott suggests.
Although if that book is as abstract as the one I just read it will probably serve me well merely as food for thought.
I'm definitely not about to get into following someone else's dogma verbatim. But food for thought is always welcome.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Whitebutterfly1 |
Mon 11/03/08 10:19 PM |
Hi WhiteButterfly and welcome to the forums. We disscuss many religious and philosophical topics in the religious forums.
However before you "spread the word" of any particular religion you should read the special rules for the religion forums.
In particular the following rule:
QUOTE: Also, topics which are designated for response exclusively from one
religion or belief system, or which may cause that type of polarization,
will be deleted. The concept behind these forums is to encourage anyone
to participate and post their opinions and thoughts as long as they are
on-topic. Topics which do not adhere to that philosophy will be
removed, and the poster may lose his/her posting privileges.
I'm glad to hear that you are anxious to 'spread the word' or your God. But using the forums as a pulpit for any particular religion is considered proslytizing.
Sharing your enthusiam is one thing.
But if you start up with "God said this" and "God wants that" and "Jesus Christ is the only God", you're going to be met with the same resistance that you'd probably offer to someone who tried to tell you that only Zeus is God, or that only Allah is God, or that only ____________ is God.
Sharing how you feel about your God is cool.
But proselytizing a religion as being the only way is not.
Just so you know. 
Evangelism is not the purpose of these forums.
I didn't make the rules. They just are what they are. 
People will put to you extremely tough questions, and you will indeed begin to feel that you need to become defensive.
And why shouldn't this be the case?
You're trying to sell something. (i.e. spread the word).
That's a cliché that's just another phrase for 'Proselytizing' a specific religion.
Sharing how you feel about your God is one thing. "Sharing the word" is just an attempt to push the religion onto other people. And that's not even polite.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Mon 11/03/08 08:50 PM |
SONG OF THE GOD
by Abracadabra
You are the Great Father Spirit
Omniscient in all of Nature
You are the masculine
You are the yang
You are the giver of energy
The Father of passion
The ethereal strength of the winds
Your power radiates as fervor from the fire
Your love shines as sunlight
You light up the day
and show me the wonders of nature
Your solar globe guides my life
From solstice to solstice you fill me with purpose
You are the provider of nourishment
and the great grower of grains
Your infinite power is only eclipsed
by your eternal flowing love
I cherish the gift of life
that you sustain for me
I extol your sacred presence
now and forevermore
Namaste
~~~
I wrote this up patterned after the one I wrote for the Goddess. Since both of these will become mainstay chants in many of my rituals and will also need to be memorized I think they do well being similarly worded. These will be my songs for the Gods, for 2009. If they evolve over that time the newly evolved songs will become the new songs in my 2010 Book of Shadows. I personally feel that a Book of Shadows should be started anew each year. Any form of stagnation is not good and that would include a Book of Shadows. Stagnated doctrine becomes dogma.
I think this is the very lesson of a God that dies and is reborn each year. The whole point of this parable is to not become stagnated.
I've tried to leave these songs open to pure animism. So these will go in as permanent additions to my 2009 Book of Shadows and will become ritual chants for the year. They are born with the God and will be presented to the Gods in the Yule ritual. These songs are gifts of praise to God.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Interpreting the Bible Literally |
Mon 11/03/08 07:04 PM |
QUOTE:
You don't know me, I don't know you, you can pretend to know god, but don't pretend to know me.
Truly.
Christians telling non-believers that they are full of anger is the oldest insult in the book.
It's a brainwashed behavior that is extremely common in the religion.
In fact, it's this kind of ignorance that the religion breeds that makes it so disgusting.
When someone disagrees with the religon they just claim that they are angry which is the same thing as claiming that they are being irrational. It's an insult plain and simple.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Mon 11/03/08 06:51 PM |
QUOTE:
Oh, and what is a wicker?
A person who puts wicks in candles. |
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: god may be aware... but not eternal |
Mon 11/03/08 06:46 PM |
Ok Funches here's some thoughts for you.
Imagine you're God.
Let's just pretend that you are aware. But all you are aware of is that you exist. You perceive yourself to be existing in a sea of white light. You can "see" the white light not with physical eyeballs, but with your mind's eye. You have no physical body.
All you know is that you are a thinking mind in a sea of white light. That's all you know. Period. You don't even think about this in terms of 'words' because you don't know what language is.
All you know is that you perceive yourself to exist and all you can do is "be" in this sea white light. You "look around" using your mind's eye. All you see no matter what 'direction' you look is the same white light. Maybe you intuitive feel that this white light is '3-dimensional' or maybe you don't. All you know for sure is that this appears to be all that exist. Just your consciousness in a sea of white light.
You begin to ponder the following thought (not in words) but just intuitively. Owl have to type it in here with words because I have no other means of conveying the idea to you,...
You think to yourself intuitively, "What am I"?
As you are thinking your surroundings suddenly go dark. All you see in your mind's eye is blackness. Then you 'remember' having seen the light and as soon as you remember it, it appears. You are sounded by light.
Then you remember the darkness and as soon as you remember it your surroundings go pitch black.
You think, "Let there be light", and there is light.
You think, "Let there be darkness", and there is darkness.
You suddenly realize that you are the one who is control of the light and dark. Whichever you wish to be will be. All you need to do is think of it, and so it is.
Then you get curious and think to yourself (again without words but just intuitively), I wonder if I can think of half light, and half dark. And as soon as you have this thought you see half light and half dark.
Then you start playing with various degrees and patterns and shapes. And you begin to realize that you can create anything you so desire using pure thought alone.
You become so involved with this that you just become totally absorbed with playing with shapes and forms and you discover that anything you can imagine will be so.
Before long you've got a universe going and you imagine being animals within this universe with all sorts of sensations. And you lose yourself in the story as you make it up like someone getting lost in a novel.
Maybe you even realize that you can be more than one animal at a time and bump into yourself but actually see it as being something external to you.
You go on to create a very complex world of complex beings and societies and you get totally lost in this dream.
Eventually at some point you get tired of the dream. It gets old. And you get bored with it. So you decide to forget that you ever did it. And it is so,..
At that moment,...
You perceive yourself to be existing in a sea of white light. You can "see" the white light not with physical eyeballs, but with your mind's eye. You have no physical body.
All you know is that you are a thinking mind in a sea of white light. That's all you know. Period. You don't even think about this in terms of 'words' because you don't know what language is yet.
...
This scenario continues forever.
What would the concept of time even mean if you keep erasing your memory?
If existence is nothing more than your own thoughts, and you erase those thoughts, they no longer exist. And what sense would it even make to say that they had existed in a "past". Who's past? What is a past but a record of what had previously occurred. If there is no longer any record, then there is no longer any past.
Time is meaningless to God.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Mon 11/03/08 06:20 PM |
I was thinking today about how wonderful it is to live in the modern world, and a modern nation that supports free speech, and freedom of religion.
Of course, I guess it has more to do with a free nation than a free world. That's truly sad.
But the mere fact that I am freely able to order witchcraft supplies and books from the Internet and practice witchcraft without any need to hide it is truly nice.
The library might not have good materials but because of the Internet they are readily available. I also can't wait to get my athames and quartz wand tip. 
I love things and I make no apologies for it. 
I am a little upset about the library crap though. This means that I have to buy the books I want to read.
I'm looking at one that Scott suggested in the back of his book. It's called "The Way of the Shaman".
Did I already post this?
Scott says that in this book methods of entering into altered states of mind are exlained. He also say that this book explain how to contact your power animal. That sounds interesting too. And finally the book supposedly focuses on healing techniques.
That was the book I was hoping to find at the library. I should have made them to an inter-library loan for me.
It's only a $10 book and would be well worth the price, IF it's any good. By that, I mean that if I like it I'll probably want it around for reference.
Scott not only recommended it, but he also put an asterisk next to it to indicate that he highly recommends it.
I could buy it from a used book store on the web, but by the time I get shipping in with that I may as well buy it new at Amazon and get free shipping.
So off to fill out an order form.
Any more book recommendations Ruth? Or anyone?
How about "Living Wicca" by Scott. Is that a continuation of the one I just read?
Also any silent thread readers out there?
H-E-L-L-O !!!!
I'm specifically interested in shamanism now, in particular learning altered states of consciousness (non-drug induced) and contacting spirits.
Or I guess I could just drink some spirits and contact unconsciousness.
Actually herbal induced altered states would be fine as long as the herbs are legally accessible in the USA.
Any potion recipes?
(I'm not plucking any eyes out of any newts though) |
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Wiccans - part 2 |
Mon 11/03/08 05:53 PM |
| You guys are already a cyber coven, and your witchy deeds are being recorded in the World Wide Web hall of flame. |
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: god may be aware... but not eternal |
Mon 11/03/08 05:10 PM |
Whatever you say big guy. 
I'm not about to argue with someone who looks like the hulk and talks like he's on acid.  |
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Interpreting the Bible Literally |
Mon 11/03/08 03:51 PM |
QUOTE:
When the Bible says thou shalt not kill do you feel this is absolute?
The Biblical God was telling people to kill other people all the time.
Stone sinners to death.
Stone unruly children to death.
Stone women who aren't virgins and who are unmarried to death.
Murder heathens, and be sure to murder their wives and children to with no mercy.
Don't forget to kill their livestock and burn their cities to the ground too.
The Biblical God sends mixed messages concerning murder. If you take the Bible literally it's hard to know what to do.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Philosophy and Science and why we cant . . . |
Mon 11/03/08 03:21 PM |
QUOTE:
It is a "self-determined goal" as in "I've decided that I want to feel good."
Ok Sky,
I surrender to your pure rationale.
Owl give up on the math book and go back to writing pure poetic incantations for the spiritual shamans who just wanna be.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Philosophy and Science and why we cant . . . |
Mon 11/03/08 02:05 PM |
QUOTE: I do. take out the Vs. and ask instead to what degree, and perhaps in what situation. Now there is a conversation.
Well, I try to rationalize everything, but I also place great value in the empirical.
As I've said, there are people who truly believe that pure thought alone has value without any empirical imput at all.
In fact, Plato, Descarte, Aristotle, and many more famous names can go on the list of philosophers who believe that everything could be known via pure thought alone.
Many modern mathematician still think this way today. They believe mathematics to be based entirely on pure thought.
In fact, many times the question arise as to whether mankind 'invented' mathematics, or 'discovered' it.
In other words, is it based on pure rationalism or does it have an existence of its own (which I would claim is empirical). However, men like Plato would claim that the pure math exists in the "mind of God", or at least some "other world that is pure psyche and non-physical".
I personally would say that today our modern mathematics is based on both empirical observations, and pure rational thought.
However, I would hold that the parts of it that are indeed based on pure rational thought are actually wrong.
They are wrong in the sense that they don't apply to the quantitative nature of this unvierse. And if they don't apply to the quantitative nature of this univese, then what do they apply to? In what way can they said to be 'truth'?
Only with respect to the axioms of the formalism?
But where did they come from? The arbitrary whim of man? "Let there be an empty set", proclaimth Georg Cantor.
Did he make that up?
Or is there such a thing?
Is there such a thing as a boogieman, just because we can imagine the concept?
Pink flying unicorns?
Faeries and leprechauns?
In what way do these pure ideas represent 'truth'?
We can imagine anything we want.
But how is it 'truth'?
Or more to the point, how can those pure ideals be used to deduce anything specific?
Anything goes is truly the bottom line.
In mathematics a pure mathematician would say, "No. Anything doesn't go, it must be based on the axioms".
But what if they axioms are faeries and leprechauns?
I think that's the key right there.
An empiricist isn't saying not to use rationale, but rather to only apply it to known premises. And the only way we can know premises are by observing them to be true. Otherwise they're just guesses and anything that is built atop a guess is still just a guess.
I think that's the bottom line that empiricists are trying to get at.
At least the premises and axioms should have some foundation in verifiable "truth", and the only way to verify truth is to experience it.
If it can't be experienced, then it's just faeries and leprechauns.
I think that's the basis of the ideal that Empriricists are attempting to get at.
Pure Rationalists seem to be saying that faeries and leprechauns are valid thoughts as long as they can be rationalized with suitable axioms. But they don't require that their axioms be empiricial.
In other words to simply say,...
AXIOM: There exist a Faerie World.
That's a sufficient foundation for a Rationalist to begin to build upon.
But the Empiricists would say, "What faeries? Show me."
By the way, Billy, this is a great thread. I'm glad you started it because these are the kinds of arguments I need to make in my book. So you're inspiring me to go back to writing on it again.
I need to show why I believe that Cantor's empty set is a 'faerie', and can't be proven to exist.
And why Giuseppe Piano's orginal definition of the number one is not a 'faerie' at all but can indeed be supported empirically.
Yes, I need to go write up that book. FINALLY!
Thanks for starting this thread, you've given me fresh ideas for a new presentation.
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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Abracadabra
Joined Thu 04/12/07
Posts: 7917
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| Topic: Philosophy and Science and why we cant . . . |
Mon 11/03/08 12:11 PM |
QUOTE:
When we came up the with words Empirical, and Rational, we had limited understanding of how information systems work. Developing computer programs, data bases, and decoding how the human brain works has expanded our understanding of how each of these lines of thought work at a more fundamental level.
This to me is a perfectly good reason to dump a lot of the garbage that muddles these two (not so exclusive) lines of thought. New insights allow us to filter the crap of previous generations.
I see empiricism as a set of analytical tools that overlap rationalism.
Rationalism without empirical data is a tool unused.
Rationalism is a tool within the set called empiricism.
I like to simplify things, not make them bigger to included all past blah blah blah.
"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."
Albert Einstein.
Well, based on that perspective alone I would say that any thinking person uses both.
So the very idea of "Rationalism vs. Empiricism" is a moot point when viewed in this way doncha think?
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