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creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Philosophy and Science and why we cant . . . Mon 11/03/08 08:46 PM
QUOTE:
Now, what is it that transforms “sensory input” into “knowledge”?


In my humblest of opinions...

That transformation capability is contained within one's own personal sense of ought and/or perceptual faculty. The personal agreements within each of us determine whether a new piece of information is worthy of further contemplation... or not.

Inference and extrapolation(s) from previously accepted knowledge continually grows the personal tree of knowledge, which may or may not be an accurate representation of truth and/or fact. The unconscious also weighs heavily on one's own personal perceptual capabilities.

 
creativesoul
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Topic: How do we Know..... Sat 11/01/08 02:04 PM
You must be alive in order to dream.
 
creativesoul
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Topic: Philosophy and Science and why we cant . . . Sat 11/01/08 01:52 PM
Those who know don't speak...

Those who speak...



wink
 
creativesoul
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Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Sat 10/25/08 12:53 PM
Hello mirror... wink How are you?

On second thought, I think I will not begin a new thread on GR... someone else may though, and I would be happy to attempt to add to it in what I would hope to be a constructive and productive way.
 
creativesoul
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Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Sat 10/25/08 12:43 PM
Ah...my friend, I knew that there could be an acceptable treaty between us.

For anyone else who would like to continue a productive GR discussion,there will be a new thread on it.

Thanks...

drinker
 
creativesoul
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Topic: has the "big bang theory" become a religious belief? Sat 10/25/08 12:17 PM
Nature abhors naked singularities... wink
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum Mechanics: Copenhagen interpretation Fri 10/24/08 09:05 PM
Spider...

Long time no write... How are you???

In response to your OP, from my own understanding...

Actually, I believe that the notion of the observer affecting the observation refers to the wave-particle duality issue that lies at the heart of quantum mechanics and was solved by two different equations which give the same result.

If one is performing experiments about the nature of photons which are designed to detect photons as waves, then waves are displayed... so to speak. Should one perform another experiment which has been designed to detect particles, then particles are shown. This has been expanded to matter as well in some cases that I have read.

Hope this helps in some way...

Peace.
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Fri 10/24/08 08:51 PM
Cool... thanks Billy.

Truly though, I cannot access it through my current available connection... besides that I usually get a deeper understanding from choosing good books and reading and re-reading and re-re-reading, etc... wink

I am in the middle of Hawking's newest one now...


James, my friend..

As we are both aware, we do not see things eye to eye on some of the matters concerning Einstein's relativity or QM. I am confident that you are at ease with this fact as much as I am. No worries...

Normally I do not intentionally comment about the personal nature of another author, however because of my fondness for your oft hidden character, I have chosen to do so on this occasion. Sometimes I just wonder where and how your responses are formulated. There are times when your answer has gone so far away from what I actually said, think, and/or feel about the subject at hand that I have to sit and wonder whether or not we are having the same conversation.

I have decided to not deliberately criticize your responses just because they differ from my own, but you have repeatedly dismissed the sources of my education(which differ at times from your expressions) as well as myself. The number one reason that I have been placid throughout this is clear within my frame of reference. I see no benefit from what could be a humiliating situation for us both, for a variety of different reasons. I think that I recognized your good intent within the earlier apology, but I wonder anymore.

Have you ever asked me the name of any book which I have read concerning Quantum Mechanics or Relativity???

Have you ever asked me who the author's were?

What is the gain?

I love to learn.

Peace, my friend...
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Thu 10/23/08 07:48 PM
Thank you James...

I assure you that I have no ill feelings towards you. In response to your answering the request that I gave you to quote my words I have the following to add to that aspect...

You gave the following two things, albeit a little short of context, but none-the-less these were the given reasons to support your prior and continued conclusion regarding my personal understanding of relativity...

I had said...

QUOTE:
I claim that the space-time fabric which Einstein describes is not accurate. Space is not flat at any time! Therefore, we cannot use a one-dimensional vision to recreate a multi-dimensional actuality.


I believe that I had already mentioned how the popular rubber membrane analogy failed for me...

Einstein' special relativity is based upon euclidian geometry(flat). Einstein's general theory also calls for spacetime which is devoid of matter and/or fields to be flat as well. That was why I asked the question.

huh

General relativity also calls for conclusions which any physicist worth his/her salt knows are not true, cannot be true!!!



Then you followed up with...



There is nothing one-dimensional about Einstein's Theory of General Relativity. Clearly you fail to understand it. You've seen a one-dimensional analogy in a book that was trying to simplify the ideas for the reader and you've somehow taken that to be a precise representation of GR. It is not. Therefore you misunderstand the theory. In fact its extremely unlikely that you're truly going to understand the theory of GR in great detail just by reading a couple of books that are designed for laymen.

A few things here, James...

One is you trust your own judgement(false assumption) capabilities about this author far too much...

Two is I had already mentioned the analogy...

Three is as I have already mentioned... according to GR spacetime without matter and fields is flat.

Ahhh... and my joke which follows...

QUOTE:
Just because I may not have a better explanation yet, does not make the generally accepted theory true.

The world was flat once too....

Know whatta mean?



I am glad that it served it's purpose...


QUOTE:
Because there is no such thing as absolute TRUTH just as there is no such thing as absolute SPACE or absolute TIME.


Sure there is... would you like me to prove it to you???

Be careful here James... think about the past...

laughing

The long posts, which you are well-known for, are much more fun to read when they are accurately describing something other than your misguided personal thought processes about another...

 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Wed 10/22/08 09:02 PM
QUOTE:
You're responses come across to me as being quite defensive.


Only when another runs away with their own mis-understanding(s) of who and what I am without ever truly reading that which I have said.

One who is merely awaiting their turn to speak(write) is not actively listening(reading)...

QUOTE:
I'm just trying to offer the best understanding I have of the subject.


As are we all...
QUOTE:
You seem to be rejecting the main ideas, yet I haven't seen where you've offered any alternative ideas.


Rejecting what James??? Show me, please.


QUOTE:
But if you stick with it long enough you'll eventually understand why it has to be so.


This would be presupposing what?

QUOTE:
Physicsts in general aren't that stupid. Relativity has survived an onslaught of rebellious physicists since it's birth in 1909.


special... 1905 General... 1915

QUOTE:
Moreover, you had spoken about 'other directions' that spacetime could be bent. Yet you haven't suggested what 'directions' they could be?


This would be fine example of why this author feels he has to defend himself...

Show me exactly what I said.


QUOTE:
You make these comments, but then never follow up on them to explain what it is that you're even attempting to suggest.


What comments??? Copy and paste my words. I will not defend a position that you have attributed to me.




Jb inserts the following...


QUOTE:
I agree Abra.For Creativesoul, to resist a theory or fact because he can't grasp it is understandable.


I just have to smile at this. Here, allow me to hold up a mirror for you.

QUOTE:
But Creative is analytical mentalist thinker and I am an imaginative and intuitive thinker. That alone always puts us in a different book. He zooms in on the details and I zoom out and look at the whole because the details only confuse me. Creative can't see the whole because he is caught up in some detail he can't get past.


Oh my.... this is too much for me to handle without laughing out loud... literally...

No further response needed...check out my avatar!


But then this by James again...


QUOTE:
Like Michael suggesting another dimension that space might be warped...


I did??? huh Show me.

QUOTE:
Otherwise, I'm just babysitting a daydreamer who's groping around in the dark without any clue at all where he might be going.


Your babysitting your own extrapolations of what you think my intent is/was.



Billy...

Yes, this and nearly all threads in this forum tend to wander. It did not bother me though, because of my fondness for all that has been spoken of..

QUOTE:
Creative I don't think it was fair of us to flat out say because you don't except some facets of these theories that you don't understand them, although abra is right, this is exactly what every physics student goes through, myself included.


I appreciate your seemingly expressed good intent. Truly.

Maybe later, I will answer your questions... what do you think?

 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Tue 10/21/08 09:27 PM
I am sitting here wondering why I am even responding again.It is beginning to feel like an attempt at retaining a prior image of whom I thought another was...

It is funny how that type of reference frame can be disillusioning...



James, you remarked as below...

QUOTE:
There were actually several things you said, but I think the following is probably the best one to point to when taken out of context.


No one here has been consistently speaking in relatively-correct language regarding the topic, but I did not actually mind it that much, the points were getting across at times none-the-less. If they were not, then someone was sure to point it out.



I wrote the following things, all of which you copied and pasted in an attempt to support your claim that I do not understand time dilation..

QUOTE:
Observations do not make the explanations of them true.


I am failing to find an issue with the above and then I wrote the following as well...

QUOTE:
Of course the mathematics fits, it has been designed around the notion that the concept is true.


While this was a sort of tongue-in-cheek remark, it is valid, wouldn't you agree? The mathematics is sound, this I realize, but honestly James... there is no reality underlying any mathematics, it is a system of organization which helps one to grasp different types of conceptual understandings regarding that which we experience.

QUOTE:
In short the claim is this...The Laws of Physics are the same for any and all frames of reference. It has to fit...lol


Again, are you seriously claiming that this response is a justifiable reason for one to believe that the author does not comprehend relativity??? What is not completely valid about that statement? It actually answers the "why" questions that you have been falsely attributing to myself, while you were simultaneuosly claiming that one cannot know that answer, or that physics(science) does not give it...

There it is! the answer of "why"...

But your direct response to it was this...


QUOTE:
I don't think you would have ever made that statement if you truly understood time dilation.


Insert scratching head emoticon here... huh

QUOTE:
Because it's not space-time. It's spacetime.


Ooops... ya got me there! This is surely a great substantiation...

My spell check says it is hyphenated, although most of what I have read is not...

But then you clamed the following...



QUOTE:
"In fact, it's the curvature of the TIME aspect of spacetime that makes gravity WORK.


and then this...

QUOTE:
Time dilation is what makes gravity work!


So are you claiming that the curvature of the time aspect of spacetime IS time dilation?

In the most extreme example of time dilation that I can think of time actually stops. This would be the singularity of a black hole.

The cause is phenomenally intense gravity due to mass/energy.

The effect is time stopping(time dilation).

An effect cannot be the cause of the cause of itself.

Maybe your right, I do not think that we are playing the same game...


drinker
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Sun 10/19/08 10:02 PM
Jb...

I really do not want to go into the conversation any farther concerning the consistency between the two questions. If you think that they require two different answers, then that is your right to think so...

No rights...


No wrongs...


I simply see it differently, from my perspective...of course.


James...

It is quite obvious that there is a mis-communication between you and I, as you have so aptly pointed out. I care not to venture into the realm of why. I am just attempting to get back into the same paragraph, because the same page is not relatively close enough...

wink

It is obvious to anyone who comprehends my words that I am a very analytical thinker. Admittedly, I type much slower than I think, and this can and has resulted in written expressions which span my thought process while consequentially leaving out the connecting dots. I sorta leave the logical train in the shadows, so to speak.

With all that in mind, after re-reading this thread's last several pages, I fail to find any substantiation in the conclusion that you arrived at.

Why would you think that I do not understand special relativity(time dilation)?

What does time dilation have to do with the theoretical concept of the curvature of space-time(gravity)?

Distance is still a product of speed and time, although it has been modified slightly, so perhaps I should say...


t' = t times the square of the difference between 1 and v squared.


An attempt to consider time dilation without taking into consideration the relative spatial distances is like attempting to make an egg sandwich without an egg.

It does not work.

I am going to humbly bow out of this conversation, as it seems to be a fruitless adventure at this point in time, relative to my own personal frame of reference.
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Sat 10/18/08 06:23 PM
QUOTE:
Okay then, Creative, if there is a "direction" in which space can curve, how would you describe that direction? Up? Down? Left? Right? In? Out? Above? Below? 30% to the right?


That is precisely what I have been attempting to get at. Most of the conventional models that I have seen thus far are three dimensional representations of a Euclidian plane which bisects the sphere causing the space-time around the sphere to distort as if it were a rubber plane capable of stretching in a direction relative to the diameter of the sphere.

QUOTE:
Aren't "directions" relative to something??


See above...

QUOTE:
What would you call the "space" above the sphere?


The space around the sphere...

QUOTE:
How would you locate the "top" of a sphere?


There is no top of a sphere...

QUOTE:
Where is up or down?


In relation to what? wink

QUOTE:
My question would be this: Is there only one sphere or is there other matter present?


One sphere

QUOTE:
If there is only one sphere, then the energy of that sphere is probably WHAT determines the "direction" of the curve of space, but even so, how would you describe or identify the direction?


It is quite logical to conclude that the matter/energy cause a change, but it does not necessitate a logical ground for which direction the curvature assumes.

QUOTE:
Do you blame me for "dismissing" this question?


It is not for me to blame you for anything, I do not share your thought patterns therefore I cannot assume why.

QUOTE:
How would you even answer it, even if you knew the answer? Care to take a stab at it?




QUOTE:
The nature and energy of the sphere determine the "direction" (however you decide to describe this direction) of the curvature of space.


So then, we must possess or gain a furthered understanding of the "nature and energy" of the object in question in order to determine which direction the space-time curvesrelative to the object itself?

QUOTE:
Now the next question that should follow is HOW?


Perhaps...


QUOTE:
I dismissed the question because it seemed like a pointless question given that the description of a direction without any points of reference would be a little difficult to name. Do you know a way to identify a direction with no points of reference?


Sorry, I assumed that the sphere itself was the only point of origin in the given description, therefore it would have been the only answer to that question, which I thought was self-explanatory...

QUOTE:
Do you know where the top and bottom of a sphere would be? Left or right? etc? If not, then what does it matter what determines a the direction of the curvature of space if you have no way to identify the direction?


It matters because the shape of spacetime is gravity itself, according to General Relativity.

QUOTE:
A better question might be what determines the shape of the universe or the shape of known space-time.


The answer to this is precisely what I asked for... lol


James...


QUOTE:
I think you're missing the point worrying about length contraction and/or 'points in space'. That's back to thinking in terms of an absolute space out there in the Newtonian sense.


huh

QUOTE:
Just focus on time dilation ONLY. Once you truly understand time dilation intuitively then you're home free with all the rest of it. You need to understand time dilation so well that you can imagine experiencing it.


Intuitively??? Time alone??? I suppose that I truly do not understand the foundations of G.R. then, because time, I thought, had no meaning all by itself.



QUOTE:
And again. Physics and Einstein's GR don't say WHY time dilation occurs. They simply say that they do indeed occur, and have been experimentally verified to be a real property of the universe in which we live.


I beg to differ with you James, science most certainly does say why and how time/space dilation occurs. The Lorentz transformations, a strangely modified Pythagorean theorem.











 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Sat 10/18/08 03:58 PM
Oh my...

James, my good man...

Yes, I am in pursuit of understanding...

BUT...

I asked not "why"...

I asked "what"...

In your support of JB's response, which dismissed a very pertinent question, you may have completely missed the relevance of my question. I will address hers and yours simultaneously depending, of course, on the frame of reference from which you perceive the events.

wink



Here was my question...



I asked
QUOTE:
What determines which direction space-time distorts???


This is a perfectly reasonable question to ask, and it is based upon Einstein's very own proposition that matter/energy are the determining factor(s) that is/are responsible(create) for gravity(the curvature of spacetime).

The above qualifying statement is valid within General Relativity, furthermore...

If matter/energy are responsible(cause) for the curvature, then then curvature itself(gravity) is an effect of matter/energy.

So then..

WHAT is it that determines which direction the so-called spacetime fabric "stretches"???

Perhaps the answer to the question is beyond the available knowledge/understanding?



JB...

In response to below...

QUOTE:
Really? You want a plausible explanation?
First, space does not "respond" to the presence of matter. Without matter, there is no space.


Perhaps from your particular frame of reference, but not according to Einstein's equations...

Without matter there is no curvature(gravity). Without matter space is flat! That understanding IS the very foundation of G.R.

QUOTE:
If you can imagine a condition where there is no matter (including anti-matter and or dark matter or matter of any kind seen or unseen) then you would see that what is left is not space, curved or otherwise. What would you imagine is there then? Nothing? A flat surface? A void? A vacuum? A black hole? I don't know, but it would not be a three dimensional or four dimensional "space."



Ok then, to borrow your common response...


So, what is your point? huh

That you do not know? Neither do I! I am simply following the logical progression throughout. Meanwhile, the inconsistencies scream out loud to me...

Perhaps it is because I have never been a blind follower of anything... religious or otherwise...

Since you have dismissed the question I asked, then what could have logically followed that answer will never be in a position to be considered.

 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Fri 10/17/08 09:05 PM
Billy...

I am wondering what the purpose of the following question is???

huh

QUOTE:
If a beam of light is traveling past me while I am moving at 99.9% the speed of light, then what speed is the light beam moving past me from my frame of reference?


According to relativity, 299,792,458 meters a second. This is one of several invariants(that which retains the exact same value in all frames of reference) in relativity. This has been attributed to the idea that an moving object has less length than when at rest(having only gravity acting upon it).

Unless, of course, you are traveling just above the surface of water, and the ray of light is underwater...

wink

In that case, the ray would never reach you in order to pass you by.



Krimsa...

QUOTE:
Dont time and space kind of "stretch" to make sure nothing goes faster than the speed of light? Time can flow at different rates and even space can stretch for different objects.


From my understanding of relativity...

The distance between any two events is what differs from one frame of reference to another, this in turn produces not only a new relative set of values for space, but time as well, effectively combining the two into space-time. I think that there are three different scenarios in which one could find themselves in a frame of reference to another. They are rather lengthy to explain, so I will not at this time.

Regarding the space-time fabric "stretching"...

In order for space-time to be "shaped", matter must exist within it. It is the presence of matter that gives space-time it's curvature. There are field equations of GR that give us specific values regarding the curvature that would result from any given distribution of matter/energy.The strangely altered Euclidian geometry of the space-time curvature is gravity, according to what I understand.

Would it not then logically follow, that matter is gravity, according to relativity ???

That would then make energy, mass, and gravity all the same thing...

It seems that Einstein just wanted a simple explanation for all things huh???

laugh


I want a plausible explanation for what determines which way the space will curve in response to the presence of matter. After all, the are nearly an infinity of directions, in terms of degrees(or seconds of a degree) that space-time could distort around a sphere...

What determines which direction space-time distorts???




 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Thu 10/16/08 09:43 PM
James and Billy...

Lol...

You both have been so sensitive regarding the possibilty that I may not understand time dilation or perhaps the differences between the two relativity theories. Your consideration deserves tremendous recognition, especially in a forum which displays little at times...

Thank you both!!! drinker

Actually the purpose of my last response was to invoke the concept of observation into the mix. I fully recognize the fact that in my ambiguity it may have seemed as though I had not grasped the notion of time dilation. My looseness of terms is surely at fault sometimes...

My sincerest apologies.

The issue arises not from the notion concerning the validity of the different observations as much as it is within the concept of the observation itself playing a key role in furthered understandings of such an event. The relativity of the observers' motion resulting in the differences of distance measurements between the events is understood.

How dependable is any conclusion which has been extrapolated from an observation of an event which has a different point of origin than the observation, itself?

It requires knowledge of the event's frame of reference, which is impossible from the observation's frame without the mathematics that Einstein proposed.

The problem is that the mathematics itself revolves around a faulty foundational premise.

Light speed is not constant in any of the observable frames of reference that exist within our known universe.

Propositions must be possible.

Howz that for being rebellious???

laughing





 
creativesoul
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Topic: Creative Bliss... Thu 10/16/08 09:16 PM
Thank you, my love...


Indeed it is!


With a fanciful blend of artsy...


Mmmmmuuuah!!!!
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Wed 10/15/08 08:54 PM
In order for the equations to work, GR assumes that space is flat when devoid of any and all matter. This is a hypothetical misrepresentation, according to the theory itself. According to the Big Bang, space has never been devoid of any and all matter.

I am staggered by the obviousness of this absurdity in an attempt to cling to Euclidian geometry.

And the proposition that nothing can travel faster than light-speed.... All electromagnetic waves travel at light-speed.

So then, what is so special about c remaining constant that it has to alter all other perceptions of time and space with some make-believe fabric which can stretch and warp???

It is increasingly interesting,none-the-less...

 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Wed 10/15/08 08:28 PM
Thanks to all who are continuing in the discussion at hand.

Built upon the electrodynamic theory of James Maxwell, which attempted to hold true to classical physics, GR fails in a number of ways.

Observations do not make the explanations of them true. Of course the mathematics fits, it has been designed around the notion that the concept is true. In short the claim is this...The Laws of Physics are the same for any and all frames of reference. It has to fit...lol

As a matter of fact, according to GR, from his/her individual frame of reference(which has uniform motion), one can observe two simultaneous events which have been produced in their own frame of reference exactly simultaneously, but.... depending upon the location of the observer within his/her own frame and in reference to the two events in the other frame, those events may or may not appear simultaneous. Most likely, they will not.


Observation does not always equate to actuality.


In order for a depression of any kind to exist in space, there must be a flatness of structure. No ifs, no ans, no buts.

That is what I claim to be untrue.

Black holes are depressions... The elliptical pattern of the orbits of satellites around a larger mass are attributed to this depression idea as well.

General Relativity extrapolated claims that there can exist a tear in the fabric creating a wormhole. Also a depression at first.

The entire construct uses the speed of light c as a constant. Light never travels unimpeded through a pure vacuum of empty space.


JB... your talking optics... holograms are cool, though.
 
creativesoul
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Posts: 3086
Topic: Quantum mechanics' knowledge Tue 10/14/08 08:27 PM
Regarding black holes...

Throughout mankind's history there have been many observations which have had mathematical and philosophical theories built around them. Hence, the existence of 'God'...

Empirical evidence for an a priori construct.

This, my friend is our way of understanding that which we do not know!

It is not surprising at all for one to find a mountain of evidence which has been built around a theory or concept which we may believe to be true.

It is merely because it has not been proven false...YET!

I claim that the space-time fabric which Einstein describes is not accurate. Space is not flat at any time! Therefore, we cannot use a one-dimensional vision to recreate a multi-dimensional actuality.

For the same reason that charges, the visible wavelengths, and any other oppositional forces cancel each other out, the space-time fabric would do the same in response to matter. Keeping this in mind, think of the rubber membrane analogy which has been used to describe space-time fabric. Should we picture a sun in the middle, as is often done to demonstrate the depression around it. This is what supposedly supports the fact that the earth's orbit is elliptical. Fair enough, I suppose... but...

I hold that a more accurate analogy would be to envision that one flat membrane not only being one, but rotate it on it's own axis. During the rotation, imagine at every movement there is another membrane, and another, and another,etc.

If one were to draw this, you would end up with what would resemble countless orbits around the center of the axis point. Countless membranes...

Now place a sun in the center!!!

All depressions would cancel each other out.

Just because I may not have a better explanation yet, does not make the generally accepted theory true.

The world was flat once too....

Know whatta mean?

 

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